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Again lets spread some newspaper on the floor and look at, what we are thinking....
WARNING! THE SURGEON GENERAL HAS DETERMINED that some of these sentences will need to be read more than once, and slowly, or your, (yes thats you!) your mind will ascribe meaning to it, that is not there!
No one need to answer these questions to what I am asking. But we are all accountable to the Father for how we think on this stuff. So please think about it.
This is a critical topic for us. We all nod our heads that, oh yeah I believe this , but if we were to actually stop and give legs to the commandment to disciple the nations, people break out in hives, they manifest, etc etc
You can go back through the emails and my website and over and over it has been expressed that this topic is not about getting to heaven. It is not about making ourselves righteous! Why do I have to keep saying it? What is it about this topic that can leave us apoplectic?
This topic is about since we are going to heaven and the word says we serve the God of the living, not the dead, and we have been bought and paid for that you are no longer your own, and like peter we should all see ourselves as bondservants.....so how does our master want us to conduct ourselves? How should we then live? If you rate by intensity, as framed by the word of God this is the big cahuna topic of the word of God. This topic defines God and establishes his authority for all or only some of life, for just the saved or everyone, are nations excused or not and it will even define what loving others is.
As bondservants, has our master left instructions for us to be doing churchy things, or did he leave enough instructions so that we can disciple the Nations? We are to spread the good news, that does involve salvation, but to disciple the Nations Is the New testament extension of taking dominnion. Yes loving people will be a part of it. But that expression narrows the command, and narrows the gospel, the good news. It will try to keep the leaven in one part of the loaf. A lot of our problems stem from us thinking that this leaven we have been given ....is really, only, for one part of the loaf.
A nation needs to know what attributes God wants or doesn’t want concerning its monetary policy, Banking systems, its view of private property, what should be the standard for right and wrong, what are just punishments, to what purpose has God created the magistrate for, what brings Gods blessing or curses, how should the military function, who should be in the military, when should it be used, what tax’s will bring blessings or curses, what should a marriage or family look like. Does God care about weed control, how the government is organized, dice, tire inflation pressure, whether the next persons turn is to the right or the left, etc etc. etc You disciple a nation by discipling its people. What will your reference point, your standard be, to do that? ….how about Romans 3:31 as a place to start? " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" let the manifesting begin!
Here is a good one, what are those topics, what foundations of understanding are being implanted in your families home schooling. Are you following Gods clear directive to father's about this subject? If you are being obedient to God, then they are being given the groundwork to work with ,and understand ,all of this discipling the nations stuff. If you do not see how Jesus is at the center of it all, then can it be passed on to them?
This is how poorly the church understands this….. today, much of the Church wants to rally around and take a stand with a women in her bikini in the name of traditional marriage. And we don’t see the incongruity of it all. The inconsistency.
Saturday, May 2, 2009
Why do most modern Christian’s think differently then Paul or the New Haven Christians did about Gods law
I don’t want to confuse, and I hope that by asking some questions, it will help us to see how we think. Then we can ruminate on whether our thinking lines up with what Gods word says. Please no one think I am poking at Greg, I very much appreciate his asking. To ask, is to seek, and God promises that if we seek we will find. So we now ask, that we may receive Gods understanding.
Its good we are on the same page as of my last response. I have to admit that I don’t for sure, positively, exactly, know which pea, under your mattress is keeping you awake. So lets work from what you could agree with, and use it, to look at what you were questioning.
Greg wrote: “But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law?”
Greg this also touchs a nerve for many …. the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law.
I mentioned this before, but now let me ask, when Paul says…. " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31
First we know from Galatians that Paul has no confusion understanding faith and works.
So…..Who’s “law” is Paul saying should be established? Is Paul indifferent about this law being established?
Does Paul sound like he might think there is a “requirement” to obey this law?
Paul gets heated at the idea that our faith might nullify the law. Right? God forbid it! Is how the KJ version put it. If we say we have no requirement to follow the law, is that nullifying the law?
What does Paul see/understand about this “law” that he is convinced, we must establish it?
About 100yrs into the reformation, Christians established a colony in New England.
The New Haven colony took the law of God without adding anything to it, to use it as the law of the colony in 1641, except for the ceremonial, or Israel specific instructions. It was….”..that all the judicial law of God given by Moses and expounded in other parts of scripture….. a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction in their proceedings against offenders….”
Why do most modern Christian’s think differently then Paul or the New Haven Christians did about Gods law? What understanding have we obtained or directive from the word have we uncovered that would make the New Haven Christians seem like Martians to us?
Greg I love this verse in 2peter 1:1…. 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 (KJV)
Simon peter is a servant, the NKJ calls it a bondservant . Does a servant have a requirement to obey? Of course, to his master. If his master is gone, but leaves him written instruction on how to carry out business, does the servant have to obey? If he didn’t would he be called a wicked servant ?
Why do we think, what we think. What is out thinking captive too. If your thinking is not captive to the word of God, then it is captive to something else. No netraul ground, you are with me or against me, you gather or you scatter.
Just think about how we think, who or what is forming our opinnions? or formed our opinions? May we be like Luther! captive to the word of God.
open my eyes that i might see wonderous things from your law psalm119:18 Blessed is the man... his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night....Psalm1 the law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of coins of gold and silver psalm 119:72 the entirty of your word is truth, and everyone of your righteous judgements last forever psalm 199:160 I long for your salvation o lord, and your law is my delight. psalm 119: 174
Might this be? part of the reason Paul says " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31
Ask yourself! Why do I think this ?
Mom says I have to come inside. Good night all!
Next….Don’t muzzle the oxen….
Its good we are on the same page as of my last response. I have to admit that I don’t for sure, positively, exactly, know which pea, under your mattress is keeping you awake. So lets work from what you could agree with, and use it, to look at what you were questioning.
Greg wrote: “But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law?”
Greg this also touchs a nerve for many …. the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law.
I mentioned this before, but now let me ask, when Paul says…. " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31
First we know from Galatians that Paul has no confusion understanding faith and works.
So…..Who’s “law” is Paul saying should be established? Is Paul indifferent about this law being established?
Does Paul sound like he might think there is a “requirement” to obey this law?
Paul gets heated at the idea that our faith might nullify the law. Right? God forbid it! Is how the KJ version put it. If we say we have no requirement to follow the law, is that nullifying the law?
What does Paul see/understand about this “law” that he is convinced, we must establish it?
About 100yrs into the reformation, Christians established a colony in New England.
The New Haven colony took the law of God without adding anything to it, to use it as the law of the colony in 1641, except for the ceremonial, or Israel specific instructions. It was….”..that all the judicial law of God given by Moses and expounded in other parts of scripture….. a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction in their proceedings against offenders….”
Why do most modern Christian’s think differently then Paul or the New Haven Christians did about Gods law? What understanding have we obtained or directive from the word have we uncovered that would make the New Haven Christians seem like Martians to us?
Greg I love this verse in 2peter 1:1…. 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 (KJV)
Simon peter is a servant, the NKJ calls it a bondservant . Does a servant have a requirement to obey? Of course, to his master. If his master is gone, but leaves him written instruction on how to carry out business, does the servant have to obey? If he didn’t would he be called a wicked servant ?
Why do we think, what we think. What is out thinking captive too. If your thinking is not captive to the word of God, then it is captive to something else. No netraul ground, you are with me or against me, you gather or you scatter.
Just think about how we think, who or what is forming our opinnions? or formed our opinions? May we be like Luther! captive to the word of God.
open my eyes that i might see wonderous things from your law psalm119:18 Blessed is the man... his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night....Psalm1 the law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of coins of gold and silver psalm 119:72 the entirty of your word is truth, and everyone of your righteous judgements last forever psalm 199:160 I long for your salvation o lord, and your law is my delight. psalm 119: 174
Might this be? part of the reason Paul says " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31
Ask yourself! Why do I think this ?
Mom says I have to come inside. Good night all!
Next….Don’t muzzle the oxen….
You only have a requirement to follow it, (Gods Law) if you are part of Gods creation
Its not what we think, but how does scripture say we should think.
Not to put you at ease, but rather to glorify God, which should put you at ease :) ........
Greg wrote
But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law? (David ....Yes and Amen! Does not scripture say.... " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we astablish the law" Rom3:31....I am just trying to understand your position. I would hope that is not what you are saying – but the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law. ( David: relax, you only have a requirement to follow it, if you are part of Gods creation, other wise it does not apply to you. No sacrifices, no rituals, they are gone, its not what saves you, Glory to Jesus! Whooo! (Im pumping my fist Rob. Can you hear the ladies..." someone is gonna get hurt..." ) But now that your are saved....How should we then live? Could you just clarify that for me so I can sleep better tonight! Of course I am kidding on the sleeping thing but I would love clarification.
Not to put you at ease, but rather to glorify God, which should put you at ease :) ........
Greg wrote
But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law? (David ....Yes and Amen! Does not scripture say.... " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we astablish the law" Rom3:31....I am just trying to understand your position. I would hope that is not what you are saying – but the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law. ( David: relax, you only have a requirement to follow it, if you are part of Gods creation, other wise it does not apply to you. No sacrifices, no rituals, they are gone, its not what saves you, Glory to Jesus! Whooo! (Im pumping my fist Rob. Can you hear the ladies..." someone is gonna get hurt..." ) But now that your are saved....How should we then live? Could you just clarify that for me so I can sleep better tonight! Of course I am kidding on the sleeping thing but I would love clarification.
As a hut in a garden of cucumbers
We do not want to wind up …. As a hut in a garden of cucumbers… Isaiah 1:9
More odds and ends….Let me assert that I am not cherry picking, what I have been talking about is stuff that just walks out of the word and starts poking at me in the kitchen during my daily reading.
Some stuff is hard to choke down. I was thinking of our buddies the Bereans again. This is serious, I want to know! If you come from a position that says that Gods law was disposed of, along with his sacrificial system. Then when the Bereans are checking up, on what Paul said, what did they use? Song of Solomon? If the law is none operative….. and psalms and proverbs are just loaded with them too. What’s left? ( If most modern evangelicals understood how the law, commandments, precepts, law, judgements are the basis for the wisdom in Proverbs they would be less quick to read a chapter every day.)
I mentioned this verse the other day, this morning it also dawned on me that this verse mentions Sodom and Gomorrah by name, and tells them to …
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:10 (KJV) ( look out, I have started reading Isaiah)
We had a running discussion earlier, on whether Gods law was for Israel only. And along the same lines from Psalms 94…..
First, note this psalms 94 is another “how long Lord” place. (And I might add I am getting excited as I get closer and closer to psalms 119, yeah baby!) and at verse 10 it says…
10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?Psalms 94:10 (KJV)
If God…. chastiseth the heathen….and he corrects them….by what standard does he use?…. his law…or theirs?
World view is such strategic fortress, because if you get it right, it will command the crossroads, “Does this line of thinking originate from what God has said? “ But if the enemy can smuggle in his viewpoint, your thinking will be taken captive.
Once you have a worldview settled into your head, it is very hard to change it. God intended it to be this way. He gave instruction to his people to train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. He gave those instructions from within a frame work and context that would have them instilling the fear of God, keeping his commandments and loving God as the starting point, the center, for understanding life.
Does that not sound like the answer to the question…”how then shall we live?”
Get it wrong and even some of the most intelligent Christians are left to wonder “how should we then live?”
Only one viewpoint will allow you to disciple the nations, as God intended. God will not be mocked, you will still be discipling the nations. But it will be to make zombie Christians, alive to Christ, but living like the dead.
Beth has cucumbers growing and I am being schooled on them, they slowly spread out and have tentacles ( it's creepy) that attach and they slowly climb, they cover and take over…..
So Rob I finally get this verse, Isaiah 1:9 ….as a hut in a garden of cucumbers….Without the fear of the lord, without loving him, with all your might, and all your soul, and all your strength, which was all about keeping his commandments and loving him. You will be, a hut in a cucumber patch. And the culture will grow and crawl, until eventually it will cover you. And from inside the hut you will hear ….“how shall we then live?”
More odds and ends….Let me assert that I am not cherry picking, what I have been talking about is stuff that just walks out of the word and starts poking at me in the kitchen during my daily reading.
Some stuff is hard to choke down. I was thinking of our buddies the Bereans again. This is serious, I want to know! If you come from a position that says that Gods law was disposed of, along with his sacrificial system. Then when the Bereans are checking up, on what Paul said, what did they use? Song of Solomon? If the law is none operative….. and psalms and proverbs are just loaded with them too. What’s left? ( If most modern evangelicals understood how the law, commandments, precepts, law, judgements are the basis for the wisdom in Proverbs they would be less quick to read a chapter every day.)
I mentioned this verse the other day, this morning it also dawned on me that this verse mentions Sodom and Gomorrah by name, and tells them to …
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:10 (KJV) ( look out, I have started reading Isaiah)
We had a running discussion earlier, on whether Gods law was for Israel only. And along the same lines from Psalms 94…..
First, note this psalms 94 is another “how long Lord” place. (And I might add I am getting excited as I get closer and closer to psalms 119, yeah baby!) and at verse 10 it says…
10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?Psalms 94:10 (KJV)
If God…. chastiseth the heathen….and he corrects them….by what standard does he use?…. his law…or theirs?
World view is such strategic fortress, because if you get it right, it will command the crossroads, “Does this line of thinking originate from what God has said? “ But if the enemy can smuggle in his viewpoint, your thinking will be taken captive.
Once you have a worldview settled into your head, it is very hard to change it. God intended it to be this way. He gave instruction to his people to train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. He gave those instructions from within a frame work and context that would have them instilling the fear of God, keeping his commandments and loving God as the starting point, the center, for understanding life.
Does that not sound like the answer to the question…”how then shall we live?”
Get it wrong and even some of the most intelligent Christians are left to wonder “how should we then live?”
Only one viewpoint will allow you to disciple the nations, as God intended. God will not be mocked, you will still be discipling the nations. But it will be to make zombie Christians, alive to Christ, but living like the dead.
Beth has cucumbers growing and I am being schooled on them, they slowly spread out and have tentacles ( it's creepy) that attach and they slowly climb, they cover and take over…..
So Rob I finally get this verse, Isaiah 1:9 ….as a hut in a garden of cucumbers….Without the fear of the lord, without loving him, with all your might, and all your soul, and all your strength, which was all about keeping his commandments and loving him. You will be, a hut in a cucumber patch. And the culture will grow and crawl, until eventually it will cover you. And from inside the hut you will hear ….“how shall we then live?”
To go after other gods
Now we are cooking with greese, hope no one gets burned. More thinken, our God is so consistent, Harmonious....
As I awoke this morning I was impressed that there is an intensity in the New Testament that matches that found in the OT when God is instructing about his covenant.
Those occasions where Jesus rips into the Pharisees . The string in Mathew23 definitely has intensity. Then I remembered, it’s the same subject matter that has all the intensity in the Old Testament. Gods law. Harmony. Because they hid Gods law, they made it null and void, for their traditions of men.
We had a former Pastor whose young child broke an arm. Their young kid was swinging. As he swung he wondered what will happen if I let go?
There is a difference. When a young child walks off a roof and falls to the ground and gets hurt. That is not evil, ignorant?!?
Falling off a roof in general is not evil, maybe stupid.
To live a course of life that nullifies Gods law is not stupid . It is wickedness, it is sin, it is death. I don’t say this. I am repeating what the word says about this.
For the Pharisee’s and the teachers of the law, it was evil. When your son, lets go of the swing to see what will happen, none of us would yell at him “ you brood of vipers!” ( please, we are not talking about the sacrifices and rituals)
Take a look at thise verse. As in so many other places this statement from God, is one continuous thought. The parts are intertwined. Together they make a whole. That of loving God. Gods definition, not mine.
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 11:13 (KJV)
Like Jesus and John said.
This next passage ,down from verse ten, gives the reason for departing from his statutes.
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Deut 11:28 (KJV)
God says,( not me,) that when we set aside the commandments, it is because we have gone after other God (s). Something else becomes the law giver. Its no longer God. And it is not neutral.
Our God is a jealous God. Because…he is a loving God, His way is life, love, merciful loving kindess, righteousness. He does not want his children letting go of the swing. Or in actuality walking off a very,very high roofs. To their death. Because your children, for generations(!) will follow you.
We are part of multiple generations now that have been walking off of roofs, all the while we confess we are loving God. But not as He defined it. And today we are seeing all around us, in every area of life what happens from this "neutral" way of living.
That’s why it has all the intensity around it. One way is life, all other ways lead to a death of some kind.
Our God is so loving! David
As I awoke this morning I was impressed that there is an intensity in the New Testament that matches that found in the OT when God is instructing about his covenant.
Those occasions where Jesus rips into the Pharisees . The string in Mathew23 definitely has intensity. Then I remembered, it’s the same subject matter that has all the intensity in the Old Testament. Gods law. Harmony. Because they hid Gods law, they made it null and void, for their traditions of men.
We had a former Pastor whose young child broke an arm. Their young kid was swinging. As he swung he wondered what will happen if I let go?
There is a difference. When a young child walks off a roof and falls to the ground and gets hurt. That is not evil, ignorant?!?
Falling off a roof in general is not evil, maybe stupid.
To live a course of life that nullifies Gods law is not stupid . It is wickedness, it is sin, it is death. I don’t say this. I am repeating what the word says about this.
For the Pharisee’s and the teachers of the law, it was evil. When your son, lets go of the swing to see what will happen, none of us would yell at him “ you brood of vipers!” ( please, we are not talking about the sacrifices and rituals)
Take a look at thise verse. As in so many other places this statement from God, is one continuous thought. The parts are intertwined. Together they make a whole. That of loving God. Gods definition, not mine.
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 11:13 (KJV)
Like Jesus and John said.
This next passage ,down from verse ten, gives the reason for departing from his statutes.
28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Deut 11:28 (KJV)
God says,( not me,) that when we set aside the commandments, it is because we have gone after other God (s). Something else becomes the law giver. Its no longer God. And it is not neutral.
Our God is a jealous God. Because…he is a loving God, His way is life, love, merciful loving kindess, righteousness. He does not want his children letting go of the swing. Or in actuality walking off a very,very high roofs. To their death. Because your children, for generations(!) will follow you.
We are part of multiple generations now that have been walking off of roofs, all the while we confess we are loving God. But not as He defined it. And today we are seeing all around us, in every area of life what happens from this "neutral" way of living.
That’s why it has all the intensity around it. One way is life, all other ways lead to a death of some kind.
Our God is so loving! David
Give Ear to the Law of God, it has multiple parts
This is thinking out loud, reflecting on the word, so nobody choke on your coffee. part 1 was here
Gabe It catches some of the flavor yes...
The first passage I noted God was stressing his Law, “…Give ear to the Law of God…” even though he cast off the sacrifice. What struck me is that God makes a distinction within his old covenant with man. That it is not. An all or nothing package, from him to us. That is how I used to see it. Because Jesus had taken the place of the sacrificial aspect of the covenant then the Law was all gone. Giant assumption on my part and I know its wrong now. The Isaiah passage showed God treating his law separate from the sacrifices, even though they are part of the law, so its not a lock,stock and barrel proposition.
This passage you have is a little different then the second piece of scripture that I couldn’t find. Saul wants to sacrifice but God wants obedience. Obedience to what? In this case it was to specific instructions from God. Obedience.
I have been trying to pay attention to what and how the Bible shows/says is Gods heart about his law, his word. The commandments, statute’s, judgment’s, precept’s, laws are integral part of Loving God, by his own words. Obedience is to result from fearing him and honoring the first three commandments. Try and find anything else in scripture that is stressed like this was. The intensity in Exodus and Deuteronomy are unmatched by anything else in the old Testament.. In the new testament you don’t see anything with that intensity. What comes close…is in Galatians, the oven is turned up pretty high. Subject matter is salvation by faith. Worthy of some heat, no?
Don’t get knee jerky on me. The four gospels will equal in mass yes, they are communicating that Jesus is the Son of God and what he did, the ultimate sacrifice, which is galactic in scope and consequence. But Christ by himself without his Law word, his justice, leaves us with a gooey mess. Direction less. We had Francis Schaeffer with “How then shall we live?” and he couldn’t answer the question because he wouldn’t allow for Gods law.
Even though God never rescinded his Law and we had Jesus, and John declaring that if you love Jesus/God keep his commandments. It was reinforcing and turning the new church to the basic operating instructions given by God. Direction,purpose.
Intensity. Like it is life and death. That is the word that colors best, both the tone and tenor of God setting up his covenant and especially the Law portion. Because it was life and death. We still don’t think it’s a big deal. Not just once but over and over it is hammered home. I am God, I love you, fear me, obey me, it is for your good, it is your wisdom, it is understanding, it is my righteousness, it reflects my merciful loving kindness to you. Everything else is death. Got it?
The other passage I saw was the same type as the first I shared, God gives the raspberry to the sacrifices but in the same breath he is drawing attention to his law. I will find it again. But I am wondering how many more are like it.
Gabe It catches some of the flavor yes...
The first passage I noted God was stressing his Law, “…Give ear to the Law of God…” even though he cast off the sacrifice. What struck me is that God makes a distinction within his old covenant with man. That it is not. An all or nothing package, from him to us. That is how I used to see it. Because Jesus had taken the place of the sacrificial aspect of the covenant then the Law was all gone. Giant assumption on my part and I know its wrong now. The Isaiah passage showed God treating his law separate from the sacrifices, even though they are part of the law, so its not a lock,stock and barrel proposition.
This passage you have is a little different then the second piece of scripture that I couldn’t find. Saul wants to sacrifice but God wants obedience. Obedience to what? In this case it was to specific instructions from God. Obedience.
I have been trying to pay attention to what and how the Bible shows/says is Gods heart about his law, his word. The commandments, statute’s, judgment’s, precept’s, laws are integral part of Loving God, by his own words. Obedience is to result from fearing him and honoring the first three commandments. Try and find anything else in scripture that is stressed like this was. The intensity in Exodus and Deuteronomy are unmatched by anything else in the old Testament.. In the new testament you don’t see anything with that intensity. What comes close…is in Galatians, the oven is turned up pretty high. Subject matter is salvation by faith. Worthy of some heat, no?
Don’t get knee jerky on me. The four gospels will equal in mass yes, they are communicating that Jesus is the Son of God and what he did, the ultimate sacrifice, which is galactic in scope and consequence. But Christ by himself without his Law word, his justice, leaves us with a gooey mess. Direction less. We had Francis Schaeffer with “How then shall we live?” and he couldn’t answer the question because he wouldn’t allow for Gods law.
Even though God never rescinded his Law and we had Jesus, and John declaring that if you love Jesus/God keep his commandments. It was reinforcing and turning the new church to the basic operating instructions given by God. Direction,purpose.
Intensity. Like it is life and death. That is the word that colors best, both the tone and tenor of God setting up his covenant and especially the Law portion. Because it was life and death. We still don’t think it’s a big deal. Not just once but over and over it is hammered home. I am God, I love you, fear me, obey me, it is for your good, it is your wisdom, it is understanding, it is my righteousness, it reflects my merciful loving kindness to you. Everything else is death. Got it?
The other passage I saw was the same type as the first I shared, God gives the raspberry to the sacrifices but in the same breath he is drawing attention to his law. I will find it again. But I am wondering how many more are like it.
Monday, April 27, 2009
How Long, Oh Lord?
An observation, Gods Slooooow cooking. ( to our Americana mind, it is slow, but then, we are but a vapor)
If ultimately things will get worse and worse until God has to just remove the remainder…Why did he tell us to go and make disciples of all Nations? (Ha Ha I knew you couldn’t do it!)
In Psalms you can see something repeated over and over, that of, “How Long?”
10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?Psalms 74:10 (KJV)
16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. 17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. Psalms 35:16-17 (KJV)
3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? 4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves? 5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage. Psalms 94:2-5 (KJV)
They go all the way through Psalms. The question is left open….but never, never is there any doubt about God triumphing. Never is it hinted that all will just go to pot. Its always, how long? It is framed to us as as componant of worship. Have you ever heard it as a part of a modern worship song?
This was a people who were in captivity for how many years before God moved to bring them out of Egypt. Could they see any physical signs of hope?
God allowed 1400 yrs to pass before having the bible assembled in a manner that households could dream of owning,even if just one. Slow cooking.
We today have the entire historical record of Gods movement and control of history. But for the most part the church today see’s no hope that God will overcome through his people. We don’t think that the leaven of the Kingdom of God can make it through the whole loaf.
This is partly because we only see how it should leaven certain areas of our lives. We deny its right to leaven everything in us. If its not applicable to us, his people, how can it be meant for the rest of the world. Today the cry is not “Lord how long?’ till you show your hand, But rather “come quickly Lord Jesus” and take us home.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Psalms 50:10-12 (KJV)
3 Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. 4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah. Psalms 66:3-4 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. Psalms 22:27-28 (KJV)
4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah Psalms 67:3-4 (KJV)
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. 9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. Psalms 72:8-11 (KJV)
. 9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. Psalms 86:8-9 (KJV)
These words of worship from Psalms harmonizes with Jesus saying…go make disciples of all nations and with God telling Adam to take dominion.
Yes I can see how this “can” be made to line up with our new understanding of the last 150yrs, the idea of a rapture and God just letting man burn himself out. But I step back if that route means it no longer can harmonize with his written word.
To our eyes, we think no way….. just like the Israelites in Egypt. But God says…. you thought I was altogether like you….. psalms 50:21
Which route is harder, which route looks impossible, which way would bring God more glory. Put your pile of chips on that way, and then hold on.
More and more I am seeing how the word fits together, front to back, without needing dispensations, excuses or fancy foot work. Like God wrote it or something. Glorious!
How big is your God? Do we need to truncate and fold his word so it is within our minds grasp. Do we have a need to see his word harmonize with the current events around us. How big is the God you are presenting to your children? Our God is a slow cooker. Can you imagine spending 100 years to make a boat?
It is time for us to yield to the example of worship in our prayers, to start asking ...."How long, Oh Lord?" I am afraid we have not asked ,because we dont believe
If ultimately things will get worse and worse until God has to just remove the remainder…Why did he tell us to go and make disciples of all Nations? (Ha Ha I knew you couldn’t do it!)
In Psalms you can see something repeated over and over, that of, “How Long?”
10 O God, how long shall the adversary reproach? shall the enemy blaspheme thy name for ever?Psalms 74:10 (KJV)
16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. 17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. Psalms 35:16-17 (KJV)
3 LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? 4 How long shall they utter and speak hard things? and all the workers of iniquity boast themselves? 5 They break in pieces thy people, O LORD, and afflict thine heritage. Psalms 94:2-5 (KJV)
They go all the way through Psalms. The question is left open….but never, never is there any doubt about God triumphing. Never is it hinted that all will just go to pot. Its always, how long? It is framed to us as as componant of worship. Have you ever heard it as a part of a modern worship song?
This was a people who were in captivity for how many years before God moved to bring them out of Egypt. Could they see any physical signs of hope?
God allowed 1400 yrs to pass before having the bible assembled in a manner that households could dream of owning,even if just one. Slow cooking.
We today have the entire historical record of Gods movement and control of history. But for the most part the church today see’s no hope that God will overcome through his people. We don’t think that the leaven of the Kingdom of God can make it through the whole loaf.
This is partly because we only see how it should leaven certain areas of our lives. We deny its right to leaven everything in us. If its not applicable to us, his people, how can it be meant for the rest of the world. Today the cry is not “Lord how long?’ till you show your hand, But rather “come quickly Lord Jesus” and take us home.
10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. 11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. 12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Psalms 50:10-12 (KJV)
3 Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee. 4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah. Psalms 66:3-4 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. Psalms 22:27-28 (KJV)
4 O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah Psalms 67:3-4 (KJV)
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. 9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust. 10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. 11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. Psalms 72:8-11 (KJV)
. 9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name. Psalms 86:8-9 (KJV)
These words of worship from Psalms harmonizes with Jesus saying…go make disciples of all nations and with God telling Adam to take dominion.
Yes I can see how this “can” be made to line up with our new understanding of the last 150yrs, the idea of a rapture and God just letting man burn himself out. But I step back if that route means it no longer can harmonize with his written word.
To our eyes, we think no way….. just like the Israelites in Egypt. But God says…. you thought I was altogether like you….. psalms 50:21
Which route is harder, which route looks impossible, which way would bring God more glory. Put your pile of chips on that way, and then hold on.
More and more I am seeing how the word fits together, front to back, without needing dispensations, excuses or fancy foot work. Like God wrote it or something. Glorious!
How big is your God? Do we need to truncate and fold his word so it is within our minds grasp. Do we have a need to see his word harmonize with the current events around us. How big is the God you are presenting to your children? Our God is a slow cooker. Can you imagine spending 100 years to make a boat?
It is time for us to yield to the example of worship in our prayers, to start asking ...."How long, Oh Lord?" I am afraid we have not asked ,because we dont believe
Give Ear to the Law of God
Has anyone else seen examples of this…. part2
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isaiah 1:11-14 (KJV)
Here God expresses his feeling on their sacrifices and offerings. What is interesting is that the prior verse, verse ten he calls them to “Give ear to the Law of God”
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:10 (KJV)
I have seen the same thing, in one other place, but it is alluding me right now, where God again disses the sacrifices but calls the people back to his Law.
If anyone stumbles onto examples of this, if you would email them to me, I would appreciate it.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isaiah 1:11-14 (KJV)
Here God expresses his feeling on their sacrifices and offerings. What is interesting is that the prior verse, verse ten he calls them to “Give ear to the Law of God”
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Isaiah 1:10 (KJV)
I have seen the same thing, in one other place, but it is alluding me right now, where God again disses the sacrifices but calls the people back to his Law.
If anyone stumbles onto examples of this, if you would email them to me, I would appreciate it.
Reformers and Economics
The most suprising economic talk I have heard lately on economics was from Herb Titus from his domminion talk. He was showing private property rights come from Genesis. Most interesting. This was from the 6cd set he gives on the Law of God.
From the most recent Mises Austrian economic conference. There were two talks that caught my attention and might be of interest to others trying to connect the dots from our christian faith to economics. They are available as free mp3's
The Influence of John Calvin on Economic Thought.
and
Nineteenth Century early Protestant theory and the biblical view of property
They were interesting, but more than once they would not come back and ground things in Gods Law, so it is kind of left hanging.
From the most recent Mises Austrian economic conference. There were two talks that caught my attention and might be of interest to others trying to connect the dots from our christian faith to economics. They are available as free mp3's
The Influence of John Calvin on Economic Thought.
and
Nineteenth Century early Protestant theory and the biblical view of property
They were interesting, but more than once they would not come back and ground things in Gods Law, so it is kind of left hanging.
Sunday, April 26, 2009
Where did they go? The demons.
I am fascinated, puzzled and still asking God for wisdom concerning all of the demonic expelling that is recorded in the gospels and in Acts.
While reading Christians and Pagans the author discussed this too. How the Jews had those who performed this and so did the christians. But the christians were better at it. I need to look at it again but i think it was from about 150AD
While reading Christians and Pagans the author discussed this too. How the Jews had those who performed this and so did the christians. But the christians were better at it. I need to look at it again but i think it was from about 150AD
Learning to fight like Paul
How should a church or pastor respond to smears and lies about its activities and beliefs? We should first throw out the window what would be our knee jerk responce to act in some way that our culture thinks is christian. Just nail ourselves to a cross and apologize all over the place because someone was disturbed by what we believe or think. Especialy if it is as a result of speaking or acting on biblical truth.
The apostle Paul showed the way with this. He never hesitated to use all legal means to frustrate those who opposed him and the gospel. The fact that most christians would be troubled with the idea of frustrating the enemies of christ is a sign of how much our thinking is captive to the culture and not Gods word.
Doug Wilson and Christs church in Idaho know what its like to live your faith, to take the gospel to all areas of life and so has drawn the wrath of those who hate our Lord. We are not attacked because we are just learning how to apply our fatih consistantly. But We will be attacked as our consistancy grows.
So as show prep it would be good to see what has happened to others and to observe how you can use the internet and current laws to defend and even advance the gospel in the face of resistance.
Wilson has a long string of archived blogs called Moscow Diversity Cleansing that can be read, laughed at and learned from. It will be good mental prep for what will surely come, if not to us , maybe to a ministry known to us. Start at the bottom of the page and work up. Its a lot of postings so consider it a semester course in wisdom application.
An example would be the christian counselors here in AZ that are being attacked by the state board.
The apostle Paul showed the way with this. He never hesitated to use all legal means to frustrate those who opposed him and the gospel. The fact that most christians would be troubled with the idea of frustrating the enemies of christ is a sign of how much our thinking is captive to the culture and not Gods word.
Doug Wilson and Christs church in Idaho know what its like to live your faith, to take the gospel to all areas of life and so has drawn the wrath of those who hate our Lord. We are not attacked because we are just learning how to apply our fatih consistantly. But We will be attacked as our consistancy grows.
So as show prep it would be good to see what has happened to others and to observe how you can use the internet and current laws to defend and even advance the gospel in the face of resistance.
Wilson has a long string of archived blogs called Moscow Diversity Cleansing that can be read, laughed at and learned from. It will be good mental prep for what will surely come, if not to us , maybe to a ministry known to us. Start at the bottom of the page and work up. Its a lot of postings so consider it a semester course in wisdom application.
An example would be the christian counselors here in AZ that are being attacked by the state board.
That ye may Live
Never mind the spoon, Gods word is something you could stand a nation up in. part one
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut 5:32-33 (KJV)
This is not about eternal life. (Just like it says in john!) This is I love you, I have chosen you for my people, so live like this, and it is for your good… for this is you wisdom and your understanding deut 4:5…that you may live.
Duet 6:24 and the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always that he might preserve us alive.
This is not about accessing the father, but pleasing the father and living your life and structuring your community in a way to advance his Kingdom, his way. Because we acknowledge that he is Lord.
This "that you may live" has to do with Gods people, who are instructed to fear him and love him and God has at least partially defined loving him, with keeping his commandments. Not for salvation but in response to his love.
Ex20: 6 showing mercy to those who love me, and keep my commandments.
I john 1:4 he who says I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him…5:2 by this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep his commandments and II john 1:6 this is love, that we walk according to his commandment…
It is a glorious harmony.
That you may live asserts a directive for living life, gives a standard of right and wrong, for all time, and all men, and is the tangible componant to go with Jesus last command to “disciple the nations”, it calls all men to his submission. And why wouldn’t it? When the author is the Lord God of the universe and claims all, everything, for his own glory.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut 5:32-33 (KJV)
This is not about eternal life. (Just like it says in john!) This is I love you, I have chosen you for my people, so live like this, and it is for your good… for this is you wisdom and your understanding deut 4:5…that you may live.
Duet 6:24 and the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always that he might preserve us alive.
This is not about accessing the father, but pleasing the father and living your life and structuring your community in a way to advance his Kingdom, his way. Because we acknowledge that he is Lord.
This "that you may live" has to do with Gods people, who are instructed to fear him and love him and God has at least partially defined loving him, with keeping his commandments. Not for salvation but in response to his love.
Ex20: 6 showing mercy to those who love me, and keep my commandments.
I john 1:4 he who says I know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him…5:2 by this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep his commandments and II john 1:6 this is love, that we walk according to his commandment…
It is a glorious harmony.
That you may live asserts a directive for living life, gives a standard of right and wrong, for all time, and all men, and is the tangible componant to go with Jesus last command to “disciple the nations”, it calls all men to his submission. And why wouldn’t it? When the author is the Lord God of the universe and claims all, everything, for his own glory.
His Commandments, they are life!
Glory! His commandments! They are life! They are grace made manifest!
I have had just a great time sifting through the word this week, each morning after arising and before working and when going to bed it has been so juicy, I have had to put newspaper on the floor. Every day I have thought of stuff I should stick on my blog or write an email about and now its Friday night and I am trying to decide what items to take out of my cart so I can get through the nine items or less line to share on Sunday morning. “You should see what I left behind in isle three..”
His truth endures, by his light we see light. I have written nothing because God has kept me hopping with work all week. Estimates and research for customers in the evening has left me no scribbling time. Praise God again!
But let me say this. I have been use to thinking that the old covenant was us, under the Law, and the new covenant was under grace. But how I have understood it, was not what the word meant.
Rob has been mining a nice stream of thought about how we grab a proof verse to back up some position, and miss looking for Gods heart behind an issue. The proof verse method, usually leaves scripture contending against other scripture. So you wind up either saying certain verses are no longer operative, or were cultural, and sometimes we are just are plain ignorant. My hand is up :)
(Wilson illistrates what that looks like here.)
God giving us his law, was an act of grace to us too! Everything God does interacting with man is always a form of his grace. We were under the Law. But no man was ever called to live “under” the law as we prisoners of modernity think of it. It was more like being under the shelter of Gods wing, the call was to live “in it” in submission to God, that ye might have life.. I see this all over the place in psalms.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut 5:32-33 (KJV)
That ye may live… God says what he commanded was life. …That you may live…. When God says something is life, or that, by this you may live, it doesn’t mean that other choices are less life. He isn’t saying “ here is one way to live amongst many, and this is one I am just throwing out there to get you going,” to prime the pump as it were.
There is no neutral ground the word says, you are with me or against me, you gather or you scatter. When told… Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live… to deviate from what God says will bring life or by this you will live, is to choose death. Anything other than Gods way, will lead to pain, corruption, death. His way, is not one of many ways, it is the only way, for life more abundant.
He showed the how, that it might be well with us, that we may prolong our days.
Does not the scriptures say, his commandments are wisdom and understanding for his people, the psalms declare that all the ways of the lord are righteous. All his ways!
Every supposition, every starting point needs to see Our God as he is, as a God of merciful loving kindness,(see ex34:6,7) all scripture needs to be examined with this as part of the background. Or we will twist and pervert the meaning of his word. We can impart meaning to his word that takes his name in vain.
Next time you are reading through psalms, watch for it, they wanted to live in it, it was life. I have been so pagan in my thinking, for so long that I saw Gods commandments for life as a burden, in direct contradiction to his word saying that they are not a burden!
How dare I call myself by His name and deny what his word says!
I repent, from making hocking sounds at Gods word.
Thank you for praying for my family, for it is God who gives one the ability to make wealth. The real wealth has come in the morning and late in the evening, meditating on his word, that ye may live. Part2
I have had just a great time sifting through the word this week, each morning after arising and before working and when going to bed it has been so juicy, I have had to put newspaper on the floor. Every day I have thought of stuff I should stick on my blog or write an email about and now its Friday night and I am trying to decide what items to take out of my cart so I can get through the nine items or less line to share on Sunday morning. “You should see what I left behind in isle three..”
His truth endures, by his light we see light. I have written nothing because God has kept me hopping with work all week. Estimates and research for customers in the evening has left me no scribbling time. Praise God again!
But let me say this. I have been use to thinking that the old covenant was us, under the Law, and the new covenant was under grace. But how I have understood it, was not what the word meant.
Rob has been mining a nice stream of thought about how we grab a proof verse to back up some position, and miss looking for Gods heart behind an issue. The proof verse method, usually leaves scripture contending against other scripture. So you wind up either saying certain verses are no longer operative, or were cultural, and sometimes we are just are plain ignorant. My hand is up :)
(Wilson illistrates what that looks like here.)
God giving us his law, was an act of grace to us too! Everything God does interacting with man is always a form of his grace. We were under the Law. But no man was ever called to live “under” the law as we prisoners of modernity think of it. It was more like being under the shelter of Gods wing, the call was to live “in it” in submission to God, that ye might have life.. I see this all over the place in psalms.
33 Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.
Deut 5:32-33 (KJV)
That ye may live… God says what he commanded was life. …That you may live…. When God says something is life, or that, by this you may live, it doesn’t mean that other choices are less life. He isn’t saying “ here is one way to live amongst many, and this is one I am just throwing out there to get you going,” to prime the pump as it were.
There is no neutral ground the word says, you are with me or against me, you gather or you scatter. When told… Ye shall walk in all the ways which the LORD your God hath commanded you, that ye may live… to deviate from what God says will bring life or by this you will live, is to choose death. Anything other than Gods way, will lead to pain, corruption, death. His way, is not one of many ways, it is the only way, for life more abundant.
He showed the how, that it might be well with us, that we may prolong our days.
Does not the scriptures say, his commandments are wisdom and understanding for his people, the psalms declare that all the ways of the lord are righteous. All his ways!
Every supposition, every starting point needs to see Our God as he is, as a God of merciful loving kindness,(see ex34:6,7) all scripture needs to be examined with this as part of the background. Or we will twist and pervert the meaning of his word. We can impart meaning to his word that takes his name in vain.
Next time you are reading through psalms, watch for it, they wanted to live in it, it was life. I have been so pagan in my thinking, for so long that I saw Gods commandments for life as a burden, in direct contradiction to his word saying that they are not a burden!
How dare I call myself by His name and deny what his word says!
I repent, from making hocking sounds at Gods word.
Thank you for praying for my family, for it is God who gives one the ability to make wealth. The real wealth has come in the morning and late in the evening, meditating on his word, that ye may live. Part2
Tea Party time
Thanks to all for your prayers for the Terry family small bizness venture. It continues to grow praise God!
I am so very thankful in what God is doing with it. But I rejoice even more with how God is bringing us more and more into the freedom and power of believing His word and what he has written for us......all the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth...the word of the Lord is truth... the counsel of the Lord stands forever... we may not know how to apply it all correctly, but at least we have stopped appologising for what the creator, Lord God of the universe, and of our Salvation, has said.
We are catching ourselves and repenting from sitting in judgement over Him and His word. What hutspa we have had. Now we are just splashing around in the wading pool,getting his word everywhere, all over us, and the walls, falling down in it and throwing it over each other and onto every situation we see. We are baptizing the next generation in this mindset, that is the best part. It is so good, chunky style chile. Its a shame we have to get out of the pool to let Rob put some more water back in. It is such a hoot!
If you are comfortable with a christianity that knows its place in polite company, then you will be asking us to keep it down. Fat chance! Ha! for we will rejoice before the the Lord...that your way may be known on the earth,Your salvation among the nations....The God of Israel who only does wonderous things...
I have an excerpt from Doug Wilsons column today, he touches on a number of points that we have been chewing on at Legacy. This is about last weeks tea parties.
....First, I take it as a given that in order for any lasting good to come out of this kind of thing it has to be, or become, explicitly Christian. This event was implicitly and informally Christian, but in times like these, that is not good enough. I was going to say that for two cents more this kind of event would become explicitly Christian, but it might be more accurate to say that they would do so for two trillion more. We cannot say this often enough. In order to be saved, we have to return to Christ our only possible Savior. It will not be enough to return to an Ozzie and Harriet America. First, that America is not here any more, and second, it couldn't save us if it were.
Second, this kind of event presents a really interesting test case scenario for Christians who understand the need for an explicitly Christian approach to the polis.....
And this leads to the final observation. The world is a messy place. Christians who want the lordship of Christ to be openly acknowledged have two options -- they can detach or engage. If they detach, they are following the anabaptist option -- in order to build the pure city out in the open spaces somewhere. But if they engage, then they are signing up to try to steer something, as opposed to building it from scratch. This means that those who want to engage have two choices again -- do you want to latch on to the liberals and try to steer them, or latch on to the conservatives and try to steer them? Given those options, you could look at both helplessly, and decide to go back to the Hutterites. If you try to steer the liberals, or the conservatives, the chances are better than even that you will be the one steered (and used). That has certainly the pattern over the last century or two. But a large part of this is explained by the practice of the Christians (who showed up to steer) agreeing to leave all their divinely inspired maps at home. That might account for the problems. But what if we brought our maps this time?
(My emphasis David:)
Read it all here No "Trick My Truck" Campaign Bus
Are you done filling the pool Rob?
I am so very thankful in what God is doing with it. But I rejoice even more with how God is bringing us more and more into the freedom and power of believing His word and what he has written for us......all the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth...the word of the Lord is truth... the counsel of the Lord stands forever... we may not know how to apply it all correctly, but at least we have stopped appologising for what the creator, Lord God of the universe, and of our Salvation, has said.
We are catching ourselves and repenting from sitting in judgement over Him and His word. What hutspa we have had. Now we are just splashing around in the wading pool,getting his word everywhere, all over us, and the walls, falling down in it and throwing it over each other and onto every situation we see. We are baptizing the next generation in this mindset, that is the best part. It is so good, chunky style chile. Its a shame we have to get out of the pool to let Rob put some more water back in. It is such a hoot!
If you are comfortable with a christianity that knows its place in polite company, then you will be asking us to keep it down. Fat chance! Ha! for we will rejoice before the the Lord...that your way may be known on the earth,Your salvation among the nations....The God of Israel who only does wonderous things...
I have an excerpt from Doug Wilsons column today, he touches on a number of points that we have been chewing on at Legacy. This is about last weeks tea parties.
....First, I take it as a given that in order for any lasting good to come out of this kind of thing it has to be, or become, explicitly Christian. This event was implicitly and informally Christian, but in times like these, that is not good enough. I was going to say that for two cents more this kind of event would become explicitly Christian, but it might be more accurate to say that they would do so for two trillion more. We cannot say this often enough. In order to be saved, we have to return to Christ our only possible Savior. It will not be enough to return to an Ozzie and Harriet America. First, that America is not here any more, and second, it couldn't save us if it were.
Second, this kind of event presents a really interesting test case scenario for Christians who understand the need for an explicitly Christian approach to the polis.....
And this leads to the final observation. The world is a messy place. Christians who want the lordship of Christ to be openly acknowledged have two options -- they can detach or engage. If they detach, they are following the anabaptist option -- in order to build the pure city out in the open spaces somewhere. But if they engage, then they are signing up to try to steer something, as opposed to building it from scratch. This means that those who want to engage have two choices again -- do you want to latch on to the liberals and try to steer them, or latch on to the conservatives and try to steer them? Given those options, you could look at both helplessly, and decide to go back to the Hutterites. If you try to steer the liberals, or the conservatives, the chances are better than even that you will be the one steered (and used). That has certainly the pattern over the last century or two. But a large part of this is explained by the practice of the Christians (who showed up to steer) agreeing to leave all their divinely inspired maps at home. That might account for the problems. But what if we brought our maps this time?
(My emphasis David:)
Read it all here No "Trick My Truck" Campaign Bus
Are you done filling the pool Rob?
Sunday, April 19, 2009
To set one part of Scripture against another part of Scripture is to think like a pagan.
At Legacy Baptist we have been working through how to apply a lot of scripture, that we are not used to seeing acknowledged, let alone seeing it applied. Here Wilson adresses this in a manner that allows me to grasp it so much better. From 2005
Cookie Cutter Diversity By douglas Wilson
Radical application of the Scriptures does not consist of taking one set of verses and applying them like crazy, while leaving another set of verses entirely neglected . It can look radical, but that is because we tend to associate the words extreme and radical. Jesus said that if your hand causes you to sin, chop it off. For some the key word here is chop, when actually it is if. Those who absolutize one set of verses over the rest of Scripture may certainly look dedicated, but they are actually dedicated to their own ideas, with the illusion of biblicity provided by a Bible, scissors, and library paste.
One man is a pacifist and absolutizes "Thou shalt not kill." Another wants to smite the Amalekite hip and thigh, and he can find his verses. But the right kind of biblical absolutist knows that he must deal with it all. Tota et sola Scriptura. Only Scripture, but also all of Scripture.
So what does this have to do with our response to the local attempts at diversity cleansing? As Christians we need to think through this business carefully. Some Christians think that we are not to resist evil, period. Go the second mile. Turn the other cheek. Overcome evil with good. As we respond to this, we cannot simply appeal to other verses that, for all intents and purposes, negate the practical application of these verses -- because these verses are in the Bible for a reason, and as Christians we ought to be pursuing opportunities to apply them genuinely, which is quite different from explaining them away. But we also hold them in balance with what the Bible teaches elsewhere. To set one part of Scripture against another part of Scripture is to think like a pagan...
Take the link,Read it all
Cookie Cutter Diversity By douglas Wilson
Radical application of the Scriptures does not consist of taking one set of verses and applying them like crazy, while leaving another set of verses entirely neglected . It can look radical, but that is because we tend to associate the words extreme and radical. Jesus said that if your hand causes you to sin, chop it off. For some the key word here is chop, when actually it is if. Those who absolutize one set of verses over the rest of Scripture may certainly look dedicated, but they are actually dedicated to their own ideas, with the illusion of biblicity provided by a Bible, scissors, and library paste.
One man is a pacifist and absolutizes "Thou shalt not kill." Another wants to smite the Amalekite hip and thigh, and he can find his verses. But the right kind of biblical absolutist knows that he must deal with it all. Tota et sola Scriptura. Only Scripture, but also all of Scripture.
So what does this have to do with our response to the local attempts at diversity cleansing? As Christians we need to think through this business carefully. Some Christians think that we are not to resist evil, period. Go the second mile. Turn the other cheek. Overcome evil with good. As we respond to this, we cannot simply appeal to other verses that, for all intents and purposes, negate the practical application of these verses -- because these verses are in the Bible for a reason, and as Christians we ought to be pursuing opportunities to apply them genuinely, which is quite different from explaining them away. But we also hold them in balance with what the Bible teaches elsewhere. To set one part of Scripture against another part of Scripture is to think like a pagan...
Take the link,Read it all
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