Saturday, May 23, 2009

You are neither hot nor cold, you are balanced.

G said….I think the interesting thing I am realizing is when iron sharpens iron it is not easy. I hope that all of our presuppositions and ideas of scripture, salvaltion, and Christ are being challenged – even if they are not being changes – because as we challenge our thinking, it gets stronger. I pray that the Lord will continue to open my eyes to my incorrect presuppositions through discussions like this.

We are all noticing this I think Greg. So I have not experienced iron sharpening iron much in my past, I called it that, but it was more like fellowship I think.

Ouch I come back to this an hour later and I see that I have spent years and years ,and it was iron sharpening iron, but not in the biblical sense. It was years and years of sharpening Americana Christianity, here let me help you get around that messy verse. Don’t worry about those. Kids look out, don’t step in that, that will lead you to legalism.

I have practiced it so well that I have had apoplectic fits when my system of knowledge was disturbed. ” Get thee behind me Satan……..” Brian was right, I have been soaked in only one way of looking at scriptures for my whole life. As of 6 yrs ago some of the gates of hell around my thinking were penetrated by Gods word.

Can you accept this biblical premise ? That believers can be taken captive by the wrong thinking. Many times i have presented those scriptures that show, it is not automatic, your maturity in the lord. All of the scriptures saying that the holy spirit will do this, or that, in you, are predicated on other truths of God. If you refuse to accept some truths of God…. It will deform how we grow in him. The warnings are all over, why warn if the HS will just bring it about?

I have been steeped that there must be balance. Now sitting here it has occurred to me that i must say false. We need the maximum ,all of Gods truth on any topic. I now see the word balance is mostly a useful tool, a toady for the enemy of my faith. Why do all the enemies of my Lord, like this word so much? You are neither hot nor cold, you are balanced. I see now that his truth is not balanced , on any topic it is on the top of the truth pile. Every other direction from there is a form of error. Yes there are places to use it properly, but i bet its mostly used to oppose God and his Word these days.

offending others

I am walking through these knowing series emails,much to agree with, much i think we bring in with us from Americana. I dont know what i will read further down, But please the word does not tell us, that is horrible to offend someone . Americana says it though, with a vengeance! You have offended me! Appologize now and you shall live! ......" well i was raised to believe this........but i know that others were not, i hope i didnt offend you...."

I pray that all will continue to expose themselves, to be challenged and challenge, as best as we can, guided by the word. This is how we will see what under the rocks we have been sitting on.

Scriptures waterboardfing us,cont.

We are finite creatures and at some point many of Gods truths do fade into the mist when it comes to our understanding of it. Mostly though its because we don’t know the word as God commanded us to know the word. I am chief among sinners in this area! It is not Impregnated into the core of our being. All of the word, every nook and cranny. Notice how often we can claim here, this verse shows it. And then someone goes, well what about these? Rats!

They all have the same author, our triune Godhead. Man, each of us will try and bring it into something that makes sense to us, our mind will do that. But we lean not on our own understanding. So when you think you have it. Go back and see if His words still sit harmoniously next to His words. We must not get angry . I am so thankful for the challenges because I must ask Jesus, what am I missing from your word, and glory to him, each challenge, helps me to keep going forward, deeper into his word.

I have no claim to Gods truths and what Christ did to remove the enmity between the father and me, and The holy Spirit gets the credit for what I can grasp.
When it was mentioned at one point about what you were not hearing from within us reformed people. I wanted to apologize to those who embrace the reformed understanding of the word. Because we have saddles on backwards and upside down, praise God we are in his word trying to be pleasing to our Father, to be obedient.

M said…When you tell me to embrace The Blessed Law of God using Deut 6:24-25, you areinadvertently doing it via The Law of Works, thereby putting a yoke of bondage onme that neither I, nor my fathers were able to bear!!! You therein give me DEATH!...

I am only pointing out what deut says over and over, is from the same author wrote to us in the NT….

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-19 (KJV)

B this is in harmony with Rom 7 that you wrote about. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 (KJV)

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:9-10 (KJV)

Matt 7:21-2321 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 1 John 2:3-7 (KJV)


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 1 John 5:2-4 (KJV)

……is this not harmony?

I am with you on your law of God point, and on your Law of faith.

On your second point. I enjoyed the irony using what God has said….that you may live long in the land,…. that it may be well with you….it is your understanding….. it is your wisdom…… it is your life etc etc and conclude that because they all died…..it must not be for this life. Does It not actually apply to your point 1…. law of God.

How many other verses would we also throw away as not applying to life here on this planet, because we will die? He is the God of the living…..and where else am I supposed to find my wisdom and understanding , if not where God himself said…. this is your wisdom and understanding?!!?

Could it not mean, maybe, just a little, that since they did die….. that it really was meant for this life? Is this not what is supposed to be as frontlets on how we see things, on our door posts, applying it when we rise and lie down and walk along the way? He said “it is your life!” If it is not for this life then why all the intensity about it? Why did God bring the curses on them for not doing it? If not……..what is God talking about there? Why send his people into captivity over something that didn’t apply to this life?

It is now one of my basic presuppositions. If I am wrong I need to know. Where qill iget my ethics code, right and wrong, the Koran, code of Hamarabi. All of a sudden I am in a world of hurt. I am going to the corner now with a sign, “will work for an ethics code”

I was surprised that the words eternal life and salvation are not embedded into Gods law. Even all the rituals and sacrifices are given to, restore them to God, while they are alive, provision is even made for un intentional sins, wow! But this law couldn’t make us righteous, boo hoo! but it did temporarily restore us to the father, beats the alternative, until the fullness of time came and now we, get to partake of what was only for shadowed for them. Whoo hoo!

I don’t think anyone really means "my system is best", I do believe that we mean, this is what scripture says. He is the God of order, it will harmonize, because it testifies of him. We continue to work on being ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us! Giving an answer for the hope within us shouldn’t make us angry, frustrated maybe, which means we are not ready to do it yet.

Our righteousness?

Now M...
Deuteronomy 6:24-25 24 "So the LORD commanded us to observe all these statutes, ato fear the LORD our God for our good always and bfor our survival, as it is today. 25 "And aIT WILL BE OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS if we 1are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us.

I gave over 31 examples of what God says is the reason for following his commandments. You are gonna take this one little fig leaf, and say that out of all of them, this is really what God was getting at. This is God telling the world, Salvation is by works? That’s a lotta chutspa. ( is that right Jerry? Don’t remember)

more waterboarding

I am just getting to plow through the water boarding series. Maturity, don’t take offense, I keep asking God to show me more!

Those components of the mosaic covenant, sacrifices, rituals have become the better way in Christ he fulfills and does away with that part of the law! Halelujah!

There are some passages that are square head on with some of "'B's" positions. But these portions of scripture become wall flowers at the dance , what do we do with them, if Christ did away with them, if they are hidden in him, if they no longer are to be applied as they were taught to be applied? I am trying to see what do we do with these from your side of the bed? How do you reconcile these passages with your application? Are not these among the same pages that you think tell us to supersede what was. That gives us a version 2.0, it sure looks and sounds like they are talking about version 1.0 minus the rituals and sacrifices.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:17-19 (KJV)

B this is in harmony with Rom 7 that you wrote about. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 3:31 (KJV)

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:9-10 (KJV)

Matt 7:21-2321 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 1 John 2:3-7 (KJV)


By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 1 John 5:2-4 (KJV)


Going way back to where I joined B in his sandbox….

….At this point though I think better thoughts of your intentions and that you are trying to encourage people not take advantage of the grace given by going on sinning (which has its explanation in the law). The problem is in the delivery because you end up stepping over the work of Christ on the cross in your attempt to get there.

Unfortunately the problem with the American church is that it does not see the weight of condemnation in the law in order to keep from having the the same flippant attitude toward the work of Christ on their behalf….

B....The American church is not being flippant. It is being more consistent with their application than those who promote this understanding. If the law(commandments) is full filled in Christ ,and because we have Christ in us, it no longer is binding on us, then you have no right to be upset with them. They are in Christ and how dare you put a yoke of bondage on them again!

But we know that scripture makes it clear that it is being flippant, that there is reason to be disturbed by it, that it does trample the body of Christ and the Word says so. Because the Law is still the standard.

But for anyone who thinks the law is gone , which means the only standard there ever was for right and wrong is gone, grin and bear it. You go down that road and you have no right to tell some one, this far but no further. The standard is gone.

You know what is right, and B, God bless you! for saying “hey that’s wrong, your trampling on the Lord Jesus! because you should. I am saying that its inconsistent for you to say it. I keep trying to see how you leverage against, what you say is no longer there.

For the record again, this law of which we speak no longer condemns us, because praise God ,Christ bore that price for us and now I can stand with God and with his law and looky looky it now no longer condemns me, because I agree with it. (no, that does not make me righteous)

Leaving a crumb trail

Last night Rob talked about his Dad. How he doesnt really know his dad. Praise God, it will not be so with your children by his grace. Be encouraged to start a blog or some way to save your emails or whatever that you have written. That one day your kids will be able to see what God has done and was doing in you .

It was from the dominion aspect that i sarted my blog, as a place to implement stewardship over what God shows me. I forget so much so fast. For any of our kids,it will be such a blessing , for your kids and grandkids. And the lessons God has shown you, will be shown again. A witness. I also need to go back through and really catagorise what i have done at my blog. Double ha! What a mess that is. I then will be able to direct people to this or that for them to read. It will be a disciple ship tool. It can be used to multiply you! Taking dominion over technology.

Do your children ever get tired of hearing about what your life was like? No they dont, they love it! Besides telling them about the time with the cat, bicycle and food processor it will be profitable to have a resevoir of different topics for them to draw from, on what God has shown you. It helps give me topics for family worship or at the dinner table.

Scripture waterboarding us

We all need to take what is good, as we can see it and thank God for it. Just keep forgiving one another as toes get stepped on
…..do we really believe his word?

--"My driving force, in all that I do, is to know Jesus Christ." How many believers do you think would say, yes that’s what my life is about, I think many from my Scenario B) would agree with it. Why? Because it is detached from scripture. It allows the same Christians who drive you nuts, to climb on board with you. Everyone can fill in what it means to … all that I do….

At the same time Rob and I can both agree and say amen too, but we are all attaching different meanings, to your phrase. The mega church and Oprah, can all climb inside this tent.

If we love Jesus. Why is it so hard to let him be our master? Why can we not do what he said to do? What did Jesus say to do if we love him? Was it to get to know him? Yes we will get to know him, but you only know him by his way, the path of obedience. We will never get to know him if we don’t learn of his ways. There is a large area of the bible where God shows his ways. That you may know…….

…"with all your heart , with all your soul with all your strength” … … Did God give this instruction in a vacuum, did he just flick it into the ether or did he deliberately place it in a context and say “do this!” I am the Lord your God!

Moralism is death! (Amen!)

Keeping God's Commandments because it's a good way to live, is death! Obedience to Him should be our goal. The fact that he gives us promises with our obedience and that it is the best way to live, is just a further manifestation of his Grace towards us! Glory! We need to receive it with gratitude, thankfulness, that his commandments are not burdensome, but come with a blessing!

This does sound good "My driving force, in all that I do, is to know Jesus Christ." But how does it harmonize with what Jesus told us to do?…. Take dominion, Love your brother, keep my commandments, disciple the nations. Note: The latter four have everything to do with obedience and will dictate a purpose, a direction.

….When God regenerates a man, and gives him a new heart, it sets him free to chase hard after Jesus…. It should also set him free to do as Jesus DID , I don’t do anything except what I see the father do , I don’t say anything except for what the father says. It sets him free to love his brother and to follow his commandments. We do not have the liberty to redefine what Our Lord and master has defined for us! He is God! Fear him. Obey him. For you have been bought and paid for. You are not your own. Take dominion, love your brother, keep my commandments, make disciples of all nations. This! is loving Jesus. It is obedience.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt 7:21 (KJV)

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matt 7:24 (KJV)

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. Matt 24:45-47 (KJV)

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Luke 6:46 (KJV)

Notice, its never…. be sure to be found doing something. But, be found doing the will of the father! Harmony, OT and NT.

The romantic period, all of our culture was soaked in it. Chrsitianity embraced an emotional shift. We modern Christians have been convinced that we may pursue Jesus like a love sick doe. It has been a disaster. Our bookstores have been loaded to bursting with this theme. Yes we must love Jesus!!!!!!! But does that love, dismiss us, from doing what we have been commanded to do?

The leaven of the kingdom of heaven has sat on the shelf because his people have been so full of loving him, that we never saw how, we should be about his business.

Jesus himself said “I am” and they tried to stone him, he said he and the father are one. He told his disciples if you have seen me , you have seen the father.

….."My driving force, in all that I do, is to know Jesus Christ." This is how the bible says we may know Jesus!

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:3-6 (KJV) Harmony OT and NT

Do we really believe the bible? Do we really love Jesus? Did abraham understand, when he was commanded to sacrifice his son? The understanding came after the obedience. It is in black and white on how we may know him. Do you believe it? Will you pick up the knife?

I have 40 plus yrs of NT soaking that was absolutely minus the word Jesus left for us in the OT. Worse yet, I was loaded with myths about the OT! Some big ones are just falling off in the last two weeks. Praise God. Guys I am way, way, behind on understanding those things that lead to knowing him, the one who saved me! Joy lies this way.

obedience by osmosis?

another way to think about this.

As mentioned, it is a most intense fashion that God declares His commandments for life. It is just as intense when he describes what happens when his commandments are ignored. It is nasty, He calls it curses. It is not a small list either. The difference between the two is as sharp as a divide as you can find. Blessings or Curses.

Question? if we can now ignore God's commandments because we have Christ in our hearts. (Now, I dont see it in scripture and what Paul, Jesus, and John say becomes incoherrent, or at least inconsistant. But lets speculate that its true.....) Then in effect we have millions and millions of American christians that are being salt in America. We should be seeing the blessings that would come from having Christ fullfilling all the commandments, all over the place. Instead, it looks just like the cursing section, from where a people has disregarded Gods Law and all these curses shall come upon you.

Scenario A) What is the number of believers in Amercia that even acknowledge his commandments as being righteous,wonderous, as our wisdom, as our understanding, let alone see them as the answer to, how shall we then live?

Scenario B) What is the number of Christians that believe that Jesus picks up the tab for all this commandment stuff?

Jesus said you will know a tree by its fruit. Which scenario A ,or B, is consistant with the fruit we are watching hit the ground all around us.

What God didnt say his commandments were about

Friday morning, just waking up, it popped into my head. Does God ever say, use these commandments to work your way to heaven? I couldnt find it and was stunned. You wouldnt believe the absolute flood of thought and scripture that are roaring out from this. Can you say strawman.....

I left this one out yesterday, but saw it during family worship today....

And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: 46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. 47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it. Deut 32:45-47 (KJV)

What does the word show, that God said, about his commandments? The word shows that they are not in competition with the glorious work of Christ, but are rather his guidance to keep us from being taken captive by hollow human philosophy concering life. Why wouldnt Paul say.... we establish the law. And Jesus would say ,not one jot or tittle will be removed.
Friday morning, just waking up, it popped into my head. Does God ever say, use these commandments to work your way to heaven? I couldnt find it and was stunned. You wouldnt believe the absolute flood of thought and scripture that are roaring out from this. Can you say strawman.....

I left this one out yesterday, but saw it during family worship today....

And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: 46 And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. 47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it. Deut 32:45-47 (KJV)

What does the word show, that God said, about his commandments? The word shows that they are not in competition with the glorious work of Christ, but are rather his guidance to keep us from being taken captive by hollow human philosophy concering life. Why wouldnt Paul say.... we establish the law. And Jesus would say ,not one jot or tittle will be removed.

The results of following the commandments

Does the text drive your presupposition or does your presupposition drive the text?

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Deut 4:1 (KJV)

For a month, months? I have been dribbling out verses that describe Gods reasons for following his commandments. The verse above is one representative of what is a tsunami pattern that God has left for us, for our understanding. If I put them together it might help. Like at the eye docter...better.....or worse?

God gives the why? The foundation is always close to this I am God, I chose you, I saved you, fear me, love me follow my commandments, because….
…you will have mercy

...that you may live…

that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth…

that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!...
for this is your wisdom.... and your understanding…

that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess.…

and that thy days may be prolonged…

that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily…

that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land…

for our good always, that he might preserve us alive…

that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy…

that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land…
ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land…
that ye may prolong your days in the land…

That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil…

And I will send grass in thy fields for thy cattle, that thou mayest eat and be full…

the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves….

There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land…
that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever…

blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee…

his heart be not lifted up above his brethren… that he may prolong his days in his kingdom…
to make thee high above all nations which he hath made…

the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:..

And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee…
Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep...

Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store….

Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways…

The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself…
And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee…

And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground…

The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow…

And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath…

And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

that thou mayest live and multiply… thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it….
that ye may prosper in all that ye do…

Amazing. These are all like gravity, woven into the fabric of our masters universe, they will run you down if you fear God, love him and keep his commandments.

I am still working on what the psalms say.

Rob what is missing in all these reasons for following the commandments? You are soooooooooooooooo hot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ex 20:6 (KJV. Deut 4:1 (KJV) Deut 4:40 (KJV) Deut 5:29 (KJV) Deut 5:33 (KJV) Deut 6:2 (KJV) Deut 6:3 (KJV) Deut 6:18 (KJV) Deut 6:24 (KJV) Deut 7:12 (KJV) Deut 8:1 (KJV) Deut 11:8 (KJV) Deut 11:9 (KJV) Deut 11:14 (KJV) Deut 11:15 (KJV) Deut 11:25 (KJV) Deut 11:23 (KJV) Deut 12:28 (KJV) Deut 15:6 (KJV) Deut 17:20 (KJV) Deut 26:19 (KJV) Deut 28:1 (KJV) Deut 28:2 (KJV) Deut 28:3-4 (KJV) Deut 28:5 (KJV) Deut 28:6 (KJV) Deut 28:7 (KJV) Deut 28:8 (KJV) Deut 28:9 (KJV) Deut 28:10-13 (KJV) Deut 30:9 (KJV) Deut 30:16 (KJV) Deut 29:9 (KJV)

Lord give us eyes that see..........

4th Basic Presupposition

Ok this is the last basic foundational presupposition. Please note going forward whether these are guiding what I am writing. So am I letting the word speak for itself or am I waterboarding it to make it confess what I want. This is to answer this....Does the text drive your presupposition or does your presupposition drive the text?
also a bonus question with this one…..

4) Gods commandments are meant to be extrapolated, not straight jacketed, it casts a long shadow 96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad. Psalms 119:96 (KJV)

Broad
H7342 râchâb raw-khawb'
From H7337; roomy, in any (or every) direction, literally or figuratively: - broad, large, at liberty, proud, wide.

Example of this is Paul in Timothy, goes to the OT and the Law to make the case for paying pastors…4 Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. Deut 25:4 (KJV)

Wondering? Why is Paul, (who also said, we establish the law)….quoting the law in this situation, if in Christ its done away with?

In bewilderment, I still cannot find what I thought would be easy to find, it shouldve been all over the place. I am stunned. Humbled by His might and wisdom.....scrambling to understand again?!?!?

More presuppositions

I am going to add a couple of more presuppositions and they are big as far as controlling what I see in the word. These are theology componants. The study of Gods nature and truth. I am putting my laundry up on the table and I think it will be eaiser to see....Is my thinking being controlled by the word of God or have I constructed (or borrowed) some false theology, that is apart from scripture, and in effect, I am changing Gods meaning of His Word. None of us wants to do that.

I think that this is important, as I have been doing something that might not have been noticed. Maybe it will be more evident after I show more of my presupposing. But its big, uuuuge. Because as we keep poking I want everyone to see that these presuppositions are dictating where I stand. Thats my hope :)

This is good to establish, before I go back and try to answer Brians question. I want others be able to see, yup, Davids underwear is showing and it is, or isnt as he described it.

Two more
Basic Presuppositions: over arching themes, Back drop, frame work,these will affect every and any topic directly.

2)God made everything, for his own glory, his claim was never rescinded. This is the purpose for everything. What God has purposed, will come to pass, his plans will not be thwarted. He is God.

3) God told man to take dominion. It was reaffirmed by Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, and given more focus with His great commission . Like leaven, the kingdom of God will enter and change everything .

These first three are a big departure from my old presuppositions, that said ....."God made everything so he could love man."

The focus is now on...

A) God and what he wants , thinks and declares. This is Trinity centric. as compard to...

B) Man and what he needs and what he thinks is just or fair. This is man centric

Now before this becomes the west minster confession, mans rebellion and Christ’s atoning work have always been part of our declarations. I also believe that points 2 and 3 are rooted in genesis and are reinforced from there all the way through the NT

I dont have a drop down box theology checker box, like for spell check or grammar. I know everyone is thinking "it wouldnt make a difference Dave as you obviously dont use the others....." But I think these additional confessions are straight from scripture,multiple times over.

Anyone can point out if something look strange as compared to the Bible. I know these are big for channeling how, and what i see and understand from the Word. If my underwear is on backwards, tell me.

Basic presuppositions

A beginning, checking my suppositions

Basic Presuppositions: over arching themes, Back drop, frame work,these will affect every and any topic directly.

1) Any correct understanding of anything must start with what God’s word has said. You cannot use any outside faith as judge over God, or what he has said. Anything that is contrary to Gods Word is a form of Humanistic thinking and a counterfeit religion. God and his word are the Uber ultimate authority source.

I am not laying out the biblical argument on some of these presuppositions, as it has been done in so many ways, with our emails. The topic goes deep really fast and is at the heart of worldview and all else. If someone really doesnt have a handle on why this is truth, or doesnt think something has ever been established, just say so. All rock bottom positions that you must stand on, become faith, religous positions. Science cannot be used to prove these. It is outside the realm of science,something observable,testable, repeatable etc.

Even the most atheistic, when pressed, admit that certain positions of theirs are just how it is, (everyone knows it), and must be believed. They dont think this is hypocrtical of them because they dont think they are religous,they are men of reason, thinking people, its just you Jesus people that are religous.

When you point this out to them it really, really bugs them. So its good to remind them about it as often as you can. Recomendation: Call them men of faith, or religous fanatics maybe even TV Evangelists.

Saturday, May 9, 2009

Distinctions,Apostles, Refugees

Doug has caught my attention with this type of topic. His distinction resonates with the Word. I am just not used to thinking in these terms.


Learning the Tune From Doug Wilson, Blog and mablog

....I have before made the distinction between apostles of the world and refugees from the world. The latter can be pretty raggety sometimes, and they frequently spout the jargon that they learned in their secularist catechism classes, taught to them by the apostles of the world. What else would they do? That doesn't keep them from being refugees. And sometimes a leader among the secularist apostles is fighting with might and main against an internal attraction to Christ, one that no one else knows about. When Saul was converted, only Barnabas thought that was even a possibility. This simply means that is sometimes difficult to distinguish apostles and refugees. Nevertheless, the distinction is essential, and should be present in everything we do. Fight the apostles with a clean conscience, and accept the refugees with open arms....

When Govt and industry collaborate to hide things,look out

So everyone in govt keeps speaking about transparency, but it is just lip service. With the stress test for the Banks just finished and the results released we find out that the results were negotiated between the Govt and the Banks.

On none of my credit ratings, has anyone worked or negotiated with me before they look at my debts and asset ratio's and then asign me a number. Nust be nice.

We find out its not as bad as everyone thought. ...following two weeks of intense bargaining.

We also see tha a different standard is now being used. ...the Fed used a different measurement of bank-capital.

So they are afraid of what will happen if it the truth is revealed. The market is up because of accounting changes?!?

Banks Won Concessions on Tests
Fed Cut Billions Off Some Initial Capital-Shortfall Estimates;

The Federal Reserve significantly scaled back the size of the capital hole facing some of the nation's biggest banks shortly before concluding its stress tests, following two weeks of intense bargaining.


In addition, according to bank and government officials, the Fed used a different measurement of bank-capital levels than analysts and investors had been expecting, resulting in much smaller capital deficits.

The overall reaction to the stress tests, announced Thursday, has been generally positive. But the haggling between the government and the banks shows the sometimes-tense nature of the negotiations that occurred before the final results were made public....

Thursday, May 7, 2009

I keep coming back and sucking on these verses from 2peter

I keep coming back and sucking on these verses from 2peter
The leaven of the Kingdom of God is for everything, as it says

….According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

From this verse there is no topic or area where God has not equipped us. It is…. hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life. Past tense he has given it. I contend it is in his law that we find most of the things that pertain to life, as a part of the knowledge loving Him and his ways.

Peter was just repeating what he had been taught as a child

128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way. Psalms 119:128 (KJV)

“How shall we then live?” God said…I have shown thee o man.

In psalm 119:128 the writer gives God credit as being correct concerning all things and when he says… and I hate every false way. We must understand that he means everything that doesn’t line up with Gods afore mentioned precepts. No neutral ground.
All thy precepts… speaks of Gods law.

If all of Gods precepts were said to be …concerning all things to be right. How could it ever mean that they are somehow, suspended, not applicable. How can what is right or true be suspended or not applicable, ever? Truth is truth, what is righteous is always righteous.

Disciple the Nations some more

Rob is wanting to impart understanding to his daughter this weekend, to give direction and purpose. He is looking to ground it from the word, starting with the OT and what God has said and continuing through the NT. This is some of the leaven of the Kingdom of God. Which will eventually bring the Muslim religion and every Nation into captivity for Christ, by His power. It is Gods principles acted upon, lived out, being obedient too, that are the tip of the sword that the gates of hell shall not be able to prevail against.

Rob is trying to return to His precepts concerning all things. First it will cause wailing and nashing of teeth amongst Christians! “Christianity Today” would not be interested in covering this little event. And if they did they would be wondering….“Rob don’t you think your limiting what your daughter can be?....”

Yes, just like God tried to limit Eve, back in the garden, to a life more abundant.

Eventually this yeast will work through the whole loaf and will topple kingdoms. If we will stop being disciples of our culture.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD. Isaiah 2:2-5 (KJV)

It first starts with Gods people, who are then to disciple the Nations!
...let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Myths and lies, taking Gods name in vain

Been awake since 3am wondering, how did we do this?

Myth, lie, taking Gods name in vain: that the OT was about externals and the New Testament is about internals.

How did this gem ever take hold. When wrapped up in the first commandments is the instruction to love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your strength. This defines an internal that will control the external. There was nothing wooden about it. This is a very intimate relationship from the God who defined himslef as 6 ...The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. Ex 34:6-8 (KJV)

Myth, lie, taking Gods name in vain: That it is the New Testament that is about loving one another, loving others and The OT was not.

Jesus cleared up the peoples mis-understanding and mis-application of his law. We commit the same errors. I have been a part of generations now, that tried to act on Jesus words disconnected from his commandments.

The Samaritan and the Lawyer. What is the reference point for Jesus…

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:25-28 (KJV)

The law was the reference point for Jesus , What is written in the law? and even the skank lawyers could see that the law commanded, not suggested , to love God and love others. Jesus didn’t rebuke him “you dummy, the law didn’t tell you to love others , but I am going too”
Jesus said Thou hast answered right. He didn’t say your close, or almost, but Thou hast answered right.

When the lawyer wanting to justify himself, it involved narrowing the application, Jesus then restored the law to its proper perspective. This too is the modern Christian, narrow the Kingdom of God. Which allows us to get out our crayons and color it in however we want. Without the law we get the gumby Jesus and each Christian can go for it. This breaks the spirit of the second commandment and the third.

Wondering. Does Jesus ever hint that He and his Father and the Holy Spirit didnt get it right when giving the law? (oops,bit of a botch job.) Jesus was the Word. That which had been written was part of Him.

We must think thoughts after him,agree with Him.

Gods Law was put in who's heart?

I rejoice as I see new things in the Word. But it is past funny at how much is contrary to what I have just accepted as the status quo. Gods word has not been our standard. In many ways it is not even in second place.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deut 30:11-14 (KJV)

Contextually I don’t see a way around it.

For a long time I have had to repel boarders over the idea that, “ see, see God has put his law in our hearts now.” As NT believers this was supposed to mean that, don’t worry about the law, we have Jesus in our hearts, God has written it in our hearts……..

Lo and behold he put his law in his peoples hearts in the OT too. Not once have I read of them running around going, I don’t have to do it, its in my heart.

God notes that he put it in their hearts, that thou mayest do it.

So does God, Our God who…. is the same yesterday today and forever, who says, I am the Lord thy God and I changeth not, still have his law is in our hearts so, that thou mayest do it?

As in Jesus saying....If you love me, keep my commandments.

Harmony, I have run out of ashes.

What are you teaching your family in this area?

14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; 15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: Lev 26:14-15 (KJV)

Praising the King of economics

Testimony, praising God!

The first month away from the dealership Beth said we used x thousands five hundred from savings to pay our bills.

The second month the garage made half of what we needed and the family with my proverbs 31 wife made enough that we only pulled a few hundred from savings.

This third month we made all the bills from the garage and enough extra to pay back what we lost the second month.

Yesterday we received our income tax overpayment check and the rounded number, x thousand five hundred match’s the rounded number that we pulled from savings the first month.

Within two hours of opening the mail I get a phone call from Scottsdale Gun club saying a buyer has put a down payment on my M16 and paid the extra non refundable $200 for their background check from the FBI. I put it up for sale back in nov 08. Prior to paying commissions or tax’s the sale price equals $500 more than what was my minimum target to earn for the last three months combined. This price is $4000 more than US Auto Weapons of Scottsdale said it was worth. The process takes months, the buyer may back out. If I see a flat rock, I give glory to God , so why not for this?

My family thanks the Lord. I make no claim, but I keep remembering that I have been zealous to see through his light, what God calls more precious and valuable than silver or gold. His law.

Kevin Swanson had a great interview on the subject of home business, good advice for anyone thinking of doing a business. Kevin also has another show today about this topic. I have not heard it yet.

The gospel is part of, economics! If you like keeping Jesus in a box, don’t read these posts or listen to these mp3’s For the rest of us, we have discipling to do.

The Series from Vision Forum on entrepreneurialism was a great help to me. To prepare me for what happened. I recommend it to all.

This is about Calvin and Protestants on economic thought. Reformers and Economics

If you missed it, Wilsons April 15 posting on taxs

And Jesus on Property Rights and Resource Preservation

Add to faith virtue and to virtue knowledge

Lord, give us eyes that see and ears that hear....

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 2 Peter 1:5-7 (KJV)

As was noted, in 2peter 1:5,6 we are shown a progression from faith to brotherly kindness and love. It shows 8 steps from faith to love. The 3rd one, is about knowledge.

Greek1097, knowing( the act) that is (by implication) knowledge: knowledge, Science

Knowledge about what or whom? Is a correct understanding of brotherly kindness and love ( the last two) possible if you misunderstand previous things that were supposed to be added?

The context and set up for verses 5&6 are seen in the earlier verses. Knowledge comes up in verses 2&3…1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:1-3 (KJV)

Both applications of this knowledge are tied to knowing God. The fear of God, we are instructed elsewhere, is the beginning of knowledge.

Note that bracketed in between them is the phrase…. as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness… in verse 3 and that we gain them… through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory.

This knowledge of him is part of the path to implement brotherly kindness and love. (verse5&6)
Where will we find this knowledge of him? 1peter1:3 says through the knowledge of God and

Jesus our Lord, hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. This is the answer to Francis Schaeffer’s question, “how shall we then live?” Would those things from God that pertain to life and Godliness be more precious than gold or silver?

God said he has given it to us. Should we not, use these “all things that pertain to life” to ”disciple the nations” If not, what will we use in place of the law system that God said…. 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Deut 4:8 (KJV)

The goal in 2peter 5&6 is to function in love. 17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. 18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD…Deut 6:17-18 (KJV)

By the very description of doing what is right and good in the sight of God... will that not include the pinnacle of loving others!

Wonderous things from your law

As it is written ….show me wondrous things from your law. That would be wonderful things…. it is delightful, sweeter than honey, more desirable than much fine gold, ,it is wisdom, it is understanding, they are life, they are righteous judgments more precious than gold or silver… this is how God describes his law. The word says in his light we see light.

If we do not see Gods law in his light than we do not see it. If you see anything wrong with the law, by what standard, what source of judgment would we use to make that call? We are talking about the commandments, not the rituals and sacrifices.
Clarification:

1) There are ten Commandments , from the ten, the OT has 600 some case laws that expand and show how to use them.

2)The thousands and thousands of additional lines are what the rulers added to what God had given them and yes throw them out. Truly, that was mans efforts to do, I am not sure what, but I think it was to make Gods law null and void. But they have nothing to do with anything being discussed about Gods Law. Because, they, are not his.

3) proposition: all ten of the commandments have direct or indirect bearing on loving our neighbors. God is Love. The last seven are all about loving our neighbor. To the point where if you see your enemies donkey, that has been lost, you are to trouble yourself, go out of your way, and take it back to him. The admonition about not hating your brother in your heart in Leviticus comes to mind. The first three commandments are the motivation and understanding to do the last seven.

4) the only reason Christians should concern themselves with Gods law has to do with obedience to the one who bought and paid for our salvation. If you love me keep my commandments.
And… 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 5:2 (KJV)

I hope no one is trying to fulfill the law.

Monday, May 4, 2009

Lew Rockwell and Jesus on property rights

Jesus on Property Rights and Resource Preservation
by Robert Higgsby Robert Higgs

Perhaps the most important proposition in the economics of property rights is that people will not care for a resource they do not own as well as they will care for a resource they do own. It is amazing how much fashionable economic belief – for example, nearly everything ever advanced in support of socialism, as well as the bulk of what passes for environmentalist policy proposals – fails to take adequate account of this virtually axiomatic proposition.

But don’t take my word for it – or even the word of any of my illustrious former colleagues at the University of Washington. Take the word of Jesus of Nazareth.

In the tenth chapter of the Gospel According to John, Jesus is trying to make a point, but his listeners are not getting it, so he finally gives them a parable he can be sure they will understand.....

Saturday, May 2, 2009

We just shouldn’t start the sentence with “you brood of vipers….”

My wife’s tomato plants will just all of a sudden go from green tomato and switch to orange tomato almost over night. It is while working the word that some of our green understandings may mature more fully. Sometimes it happens suddenly. More times than not, it takes a lot of time.

Presuppositions can be easily disturbed. We will react when this happens, if in your mind, if nothing else. Your understanding and rationality for life is built on things pre supposed. It might be things that have never been proved but they are accepted as if it is the surest foundation. The “building” in our mind and our life, goes on no matter what. So a lot is at stake when these suppositions are disturbed. This is a foundational truth for every faith, Christian or Humanist. ( humanism starts with anything other than Gods word, so we can dump every other non orthodox faith under that title, Muslim, atheist, JW, secularist, etc, etc, they all use something other than Gods word as starting point. )

We have all been trained by our culture, in the new religion, that it is not polite, rude, un Amermican, unloving and even coloring outside the lines, to touch anyones presuppostions, to disturb how they worship their god. Diversity, idols all over, every man doing what is right in his own eyes. This is even state supported and subsidized worship.

That we may be profitable servants ( 2 peter1) lets press in some more. Lets us press in to the cloud of smoke. As Moses said, “it is the Lord.”

This topic, as no other topic I know of, can put more dust in the air! Why? Foundations are being touched.

Ultimately this defines who and what our God is. And what he wants from his servants. What we should be doing. The enemy of Christ and our faith has helped to craft an image of God, that is not born out, as his Word defines him. So no one should feel put upon, but everyone should feel a responsibility to see firmly in their mind the scriptural basis for what they think is true.

And by all means if we think someone is off the mark, we must ask, are you saying this? Or why are you saying that? Bereans, looking in the word, to see if it was so. Iron sharpening iron. We just shouldn’t start the sentence with “you brood of vipers….”

We are defining the God of Love here. If we ascribe characteristics to God that spring not from His word we wind up worshipping a false God. This is also the 3rd commandment, saying do not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

Swearing while using Gods name does not twist our understanding of God. Ascribing understanding of God that is contrary to the word of God, that really is taking his name in vain, capitol V.

But we will never take every thought captive if a shaking and dust makes us pull back. So we will not shrink back. We have been commanded to take every thought captive. To tear down every false thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God! Our fore father's did not tear down the high places, so we get to do it. It is part of the gospel, good news, and it too is discipling the nations.

Disciple the nations!

Again lets spread some newspaper on the floor and look at, what we are thinking....

WARNING! THE SURGEON GENERAL HAS DETERMINED that some of these sentences will need to be read more than once, and slowly, or your, (yes thats you!) your mind will ascribe meaning to it, that is not there!

No one need to answer these questions to what I am asking. But we are all accountable to the Father for how we think on this stuff. So please think about it.

This is a critical topic for us. We all nod our heads that, oh yeah I believe this , but if we were to actually stop and give legs to the commandment to disciple the nations, people break out in hives, they manifest, etc etc

You can go back through the emails and my website and over and over it has been expressed that this topic is not about getting to heaven. It is not about making ourselves righteous! Why do I have to keep saying it? What is it about this topic that can leave us apoplectic?

This topic is about since we are going to heaven and the word says we serve the God of the living, not the dead, and we have been bought and paid for that you are no longer your own, and like peter we should all see ourselves as bondservants.....so how does our master want us to conduct ourselves? How should we then live? If you rate by intensity, as framed by the word of God this is the big cahuna topic of the word of God. This topic defines God and establishes his authority for all or only some of life, for just the saved or everyone, are nations excused or not and it will even define what loving others is.

As bondservants, has our master left instructions for us to be doing churchy things, or did he leave enough instructions so that we can disciple the Nations? We are to spread the good news, that does involve salvation, but to disciple the Nations Is the New testament extension of taking dominnion. Yes loving people will be a part of it. But that expression narrows the command, and narrows the gospel, the good news. It will try to keep the leaven in one part of the loaf. A lot of our problems stem from us thinking that this leaven we have been given ....is really, only, for one part of the loaf.

A nation needs to know what attributes God wants or doesn’t want concerning its monetary policy, Banking systems, its view of private property, what should be the standard for right and wrong, what are just punishments, to what purpose has God created the magistrate for, what brings Gods blessing or curses, how should the military function, who should be in the military, when should it be used, what tax’s will bring blessings or curses, what should a marriage or family look like. Does God care about weed control, how the government is organized, dice, tire inflation pressure, whether the next persons turn is to the right or the left, etc etc. etc You disciple a nation by discipling its people. What will your reference point, your standard be, to do that? ….how about Romans 3:31 as a place to start? " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" let the manifesting begin!

Here is a good one, what are those topics, what foundations of understanding are being implanted in your families home schooling. Are you following Gods clear directive to father's about this subject? If you are being obedient to God, then they are being given the groundwork to work with ,and understand ,all of this discipling the nations stuff. If you do not see how Jesus is at the center of it all, then can it be passed on to them?

This is how poorly the church understands this….. today, much of the Church wants to rally around and take a stand with a women in her bikini in the name of traditional marriage. And we don’t see the incongruity of it all. The inconsistency.

Why do most modern Christian’s think differently then Paul or the New Haven Christians did about Gods law

I don’t want to confuse, and I hope that by asking some questions, it will help us to see how we think. Then we can ruminate on whether our thinking lines up with what Gods word says. Please no one think I am poking at Greg, I very much appreciate his asking. To ask, is to seek, and God promises that if we seek we will find. So we now ask, that we may receive Gods understanding.

Its good we are on the same page as of my last response. I have to admit that I don’t for sure, positively, exactly, know which pea, under your mattress is keeping you awake. So lets work from what you could agree with, and use it, to look at what you were questioning.

Greg wrote: “But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law?”
Greg this also touchs a nerve for many …. the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law.

I mentioned this before, but now let me ask, when Paul says…. " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31

First we know from Galatians that Paul has no confusion understanding faith and works.
So…..Who’s “law” is Paul saying should be established? Is Paul indifferent about this law being established?

Does Paul sound like he might think there is a “requirement” to obey this law?

Paul gets heated at the idea that our faith might nullify the law. Right? God forbid it! Is how the KJ version put it. If we say we have no requirement to follow the law, is that nullifying the law?
What does Paul see/understand about this “law” that he is convinced, we must establish it?

About 100yrs into the reformation, Christians established a colony in New England.
The New Haven colony took the law of God without adding anything to it, to use it as the law of the colony in 1641, except for the ceremonial, or Israel specific instructions. It was….”..that all the judicial law of God given by Moses and expounded in other parts of scripture….. a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction in their proceedings against offenders….”

Why do most modern Christian’s think differently then Paul or the New Haven Christians did about Gods law? What understanding have we obtained or directive from the word have we uncovered that would make the New Haven Christians seem like Martians to us?

Greg I love this verse in 2peter 1:1…. 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1 (KJV)

Simon peter is a servant, the NKJ calls it a bondservant . Does a servant have a requirement to obey? Of course, to his master. If his master is gone, but leaves him written instruction on how to carry out business, does the servant have to obey? If he didn’t would he be called a wicked servant ?

Why do we think, what we think. What is out thinking captive too. If your thinking is not captive to the word of God, then it is captive to something else. No netraul ground, you are with me or against me, you gather or you scatter.

Just think about how we think, who or what is forming our opinnions? or formed our opinions? May we be like Luther! captive to the word of God.

open my eyes that i might see wonderous things from your law psalm119:18 Blessed is the man... his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night....Psalm1 the law of your mouth is better to me than thousands of coins of gold and silver psalm 119:72 the entirty of your word is truth, and everyone of your righteous judgements last forever psalm 199:160 I long for your salvation o lord, and your law is my delight. psalm 119: 174

Might this be? part of the reason Paul says " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we establish the law" Rom3:31

Ask yourself! Why do I think this ?

Mom says I have to come inside. Good night all!
Next….Don’t muzzle the oxen….

You only have a requirement to follow it, (Gods Law) if you are part of Gods creation

Its not what we think, but how does scripture say we should think.

Not to put you at ease, but rather to glorify God, which should put you at ease :) ........

Greg wrote
But I struggle with your comment below “if the law is non operative”. Are you suggesting that our salvation has something to do with following the law? (David ....Yes and Amen! Does not scripture say.... " do we then nulify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary , we astablish the law" Rom3:31....I am just trying to understand your position. I would hope that is not what you are saying – but the word “operative” to me comes across as though there is some remaining “requirement” to follow the law. ( David: relax, you only have a requirement to follow it, if you are part of Gods creation, other wise it does not apply to you. No sacrifices, no rituals, they are gone, its not what saves you, Glory to Jesus! Whooo! (Im pumping my fist Rob. Can you hear the ladies..." someone is gonna get hurt..." ) But now that your are saved....How should we then live? Could you just clarify that for me so I can sleep better tonight! Of course I am kidding on the sleeping thing but I would love clarification.

As a hut in a garden of cucumbers

We do not want to wind up …. As a hut in a garden of cucumbers… Isaiah 1:9

More odds and ends….Let me assert that I am not cherry picking, what I have been talking about is stuff that just walks out of the word and starts poking at me in the kitchen during my daily reading.

Some stuff is hard to choke down. I was thinking of our buddies the Bereans again. This is serious, I want to know! If you come from a position that says that Gods law was disposed of, along with his sacrificial system. Then when the Bereans are checking up, on what Paul said, what did they use? Song of Solomon? If the law is none operative….. and psalms and proverbs are just loaded with them too. What’s left? ( If most modern evangelicals understood how the law, commandments, precepts, law, judgements are the basis for the wisdom in Proverbs they would be less quick to read a chapter every day.)

I mentioned this verse the other day, this morning it also dawned on me that this verse mentions Sodom and Gomorrah by name, and tells them to …

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. Isaiah 1:10 (KJV) ( look out, I have started reading Isaiah)

We had a running discussion earlier, on whether Gods law was for Israel only. And along the same lines from Psalms 94…..

First, note this psalms 94 is another “how long Lord” place. (And I might add I am getting excited as I get closer and closer to psalms 119, yeah baby!) and at verse 10 it says…

10 He that chastiseth the heathen, shall not he correct? he that teacheth man knowledge, shall not he know?Psalms 94:10 (KJV)

If God…. chastiseth the heathen….and he corrects them….by what standard does he use?…. his law…or theirs?

World view is such strategic fortress, because if you get it right, it will command the crossroads, “Does this line of thinking originate from what God has said? “ But if the enemy can smuggle in his viewpoint, your thinking will be taken captive.

Once you have a worldview settled into your head, it is very hard to change it. God intended it to be this way. He gave instruction to his people to train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. He gave those instructions from within a frame work and context that would have them instilling the fear of God, keeping his commandments and loving God as the starting point, the center, for understanding life.

Does that not sound like the answer to the question…”how then shall we live?”
Get it wrong and even some of the most intelligent Christians are left to wonder “how should we then live?”

Only one viewpoint will allow you to disciple the nations, as God intended. God will not be mocked, you will still be discipling the nations. But it will be to make zombie Christians, alive to Christ, but living like the dead.

Beth has cucumbers growing and I am being schooled on them, they slowly spread out and have tentacles ( it's creepy) that attach and they slowly climb, they cover and take over…..

So Rob I finally get this verse, Isaiah 1:9 ….as a hut in a garden of cucumbers….Without the fear of the lord, without loving him, with all your might, and all your soul, and all your strength, which was all about keeping his commandments and loving him. You will be, a hut in a cucumber patch. And the culture will grow and crawl, until eventually it will cover you. And from inside the hut you will hear ….“how shall we then live?”

To go after other gods

Now we are cooking with greese, hope no one gets burned. More thinken, our God is so consistent, Harmonious....

As I awoke this morning I was impressed that there is an intensity in the New Testament that matches that found in the OT when God is instructing about his covenant.

Those occasions where Jesus rips into the Pharisees . The string in Mathew23 definitely has intensity. Then I remembered, it’s the same subject matter that has all the intensity in the Old Testament. Gods law. Harmony. Because they hid Gods law, they made it null and void, for their traditions of men.

We had a former Pastor whose young child broke an arm. Their young kid was swinging. As he swung he wondered what will happen if I let go?

There is a difference. When a young child walks off a roof and falls to the ground and gets hurt. That is not evil, ignorant?!?

Falling off a roof in general is not evil, maybe stupid.

To live a course of life that nullifies Gods law is not stupid . It is wickedness, it is sin, it is death. I don’t say this. I am repeating what the word says about this.

For the Pharisee’s and the teachers of the law, it was evil. When your son, lets go of the swing to see what will happen, none of us would yell at him “ you brood of vipers!” ( please, we are not talking about the sacrifices and rituals)

Take a look at thise verse. As in so many other places this statement from God, is one continuous thought. The parts are intertwined. Together they make a whole. That of loving God. Gods definition, not mine.

13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 11:13 (KJV)

Like Jesus and John said.

This next passage ,down from verse ten, gives the reason for departing from his statutes.

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Deut 11:28 (KJV)

God says,( not me,) that when we set aside the commandments, it is because we have gone after other God (s). Something else becomes the law giver. Its no longer God. And it is not neutral.

Our God is a jealous God. Because…he is a loving God, His way is life, love, merciful loving kindess, righteousness. He does not want his children letting go of the swing. Or in actuality walking off a very,very high roofs. To their death. Because your children, for generations(!) will follow you.

We are part of multiple generations now that have been walking off of roofs, all the while we confess we are loving God. But not as He defined it. And today we are seeing all around us, in every area of life what happens from this "neutral" way of living.

That’s why it has all the intensity around it. One way is life, all other ways lead to a death of some kind.

Our God is so loving! David

Give Ear to the Law of God, it has multiple parts

This is thinking out loud, reflecting on the word, so nobody choke on your coffee. part 1 was here

Gabe It catches some of the flavor yes...

The first passage I noted God was stressing his Law, “…Give ear to the Law of God…” even though he cast off the sacrifice. What struck me is that God makes a distinction within his old covenant with man. That it is not. An all or nothing package, from him to us. That is how I used to see it. Because Jesus had taken the place of the sacrificial aspect of the covenant then the Law was all gone. Giant assumption on my part and I know its wrong now. The Isaiah passage showed God treating his law separate from the sacrifices, even though they are part of the law, so its not a lock,stock and barrel proposition.

This passage you have is a little different then the second piece of scripture that I couldn’t find. Saul wants to sacrifice but God wants obedience. Obedience to what? In this case it was to specific instructions from God. Obedience.

I have been trying to pay attention to what and how the Bible shows/says is Gods heart about his law, his word. The commandments, statute’s, judgment’s, precept’s, laws are integral part of Loving God, by his own words. Obedience is to result from fearing him and honoring the first three commandments. Try and find anything else in scripture that is stressed like this was. The intensity in Exodus and Deuteronomy are unmatched by anything else in the old Testament.. In the new testament you don’t see anything with that intensity. What comes close…is in Galatians, the oven is turned up pretty high. Subject matter is salvation by faith. Worthy of some heat, no?

Don’t get knee jerky on me. The four gospels will equal in mass yes, they are communicating that Jesus is the Son of God and what he did, the ultimate sacrifice, which is galactic in scope and consequence. But Christ by himself without his Law word, his justice, leaves us with a gooey mess. Direction less. We had Francis Schaeffer with “How then shall we live?” and he couldn’t answer the question because he wouldn’t allow for Gods law.

Even though God never rescinded his Law and we had Jesus, and John declaring that if you love Jesus/God keep his commandments. It was reinforcing and turning the new church to the basic operating instructions given by God. Direction,purpose.

Intensity. Like it is life and death. That is the word that colors best, both the tone and tenor of God setting up his covenant and especially the Law portion. Because it was life and death. We still don’t think it’s a big deal. Not just once but over and over it is hammered home. I am God, I love you, fear me, obey me, it is for your good, it is your wisdom, it is understanding, it is my righteousness, it reflects my merciful loving kindness to you. Everything else is death. Got it?

The other passage I saw was the same type as the first I shared, God gives the raspberry to the sacrifices but in the same breath he is drawing attention to his law. I will find it again. But I am wondering how many more are like it.